Apathy

[demaal]

I think we need to start fostering better organisation within the nation. Too many people seem to be apathetic when it comes to pvp, and I'm not necessarily talking the general "let's go out and roll people" pvp, I'm talking city defence, mine taking etc. As it stands the current atmosphere is starting to take a toll, both with respect to our nation status on Braialla, and also on the morale of players (losing Clatto the other day, while only one player, was a real punch in the guts especially for me since we started at the same time and we've been friends since the beginning).

As much as I hate to say it I think we need to take a page out of the CS books on this one . One of our continuing problems is people not having at least one r7 toon, another being when it does come time for the pvp, people don't listen or don't have enough control over their toon to be effective.

As far as the r7 toon problem is concerned, that's easily solved by arrangin PL groups. I'm more than willing to PL people on my druid, though with our recent trend of "no allies, everyone is KoS" it's narrowed the camp options hugely, since some of the best lower lvl areas are controlled by TAO (Greensward Pyre, Doomplain, Thollok Marsh). Like it or not PL is an integral part of a successful nation, and I think we need to reconsider alliances in light of that fact.

Concerning toon effectiveness, our best option is to provide as much help as possibble, and also arrange regular sparring contests so players can learn how to use their toons properly in pvp. I know for a fact that I'm only just learning how to use my toons effectively, but we could increase that learning curve much more by getting people to spar.

My one final concern is Ventrilo. I know it's ideal that everyone be in it, and people just aren't bothering which again is causing problems. I think we need to consider trying to better marry the coordination between vent and /nation by getting one person in vent willing to transfer orders over to /nation during pvp (I'm willing to do this when I'm on).

We have the potential for a really great nation here, but we really need to iron out the creases (and soon) because otherwise we'll end up falling apart.

Just my thoughts...

[molukai]

Your absolutely right my dear friend. Actually many Divinity have told me that they have been feeling this way as of late, but the problem is not because of Divinity in specific. In regards to apathetic behavior, further examination of "veteran" guilds such as Crime Syndicate show that they are deteriorating even faster than we are. Undoubtedly, the reason for this is that SB is the ultimate game in political anarchy, but little for much else. Whether your nation is excellent at PVP or not, if you are in a stable world server where every nation can pretty much successfully defend their own city/state/nation from an enemy force but equally be unable to successfully take another city/state/nation, the game gets boring. Such as is Braialla, where Crime Syndicate is now falling apart, and most of their leaders are leaving.

On a broad scale, fractures in guilds can be seen on a world-level. The attitude of players and the activeness of players, regardless of guild, has gone down significantly as this server enters a matured phase of its gamelife. We can become the more organized pvp force in the entire world, but even that is satisfying to a certain level - there is no real reward out of it, save the ability to attain control of some semi-precious resources.

As for alliances, the current ideology is that our allies are our allies when it comes to rallying for a bane-related issue. Outside of that, they are open game. If they don't attack you, then don't feel the need to attack them -- just know that you are able to, and that they are given the same rights.

As for Ventrilo, that is an ongoing problem, although to be honest I don't think ventrilo is necessary for effective game function. Many people are more than capable of typing their thoughts into nation chat and have their orders relayed to everyone within a very short amount of time, in most cases not hindering their normal functions. As such I am quite divided as to whether or not to continue to push people to get on ventrilo or just resort to our old system... a view that is not shared by the non-divinity affiliated guilds within the nation.

As for Clatto, I am sad that he left. But I guess that could not be helped. Officers go through the most crap in a MMO, and often may feel underappreciated. At that point the guild no longer becomes fun and becomes more like a job -- a time to sever bonds. Unfortunately for Clatto, as I said previously, the game in general is having its strain on everyone, consequently resulting in making the game itself seem like a chore.

I predict that this server does not have much life left. But it is all for the better. Divinity will be reborn on a better game sometime soon.

[aemilius]

I dont think apathy is the correct word. Seems more like fair weather. Many have left to go to a guild/nation that is better at pvp...to be on the winning team. I dont know about you, but whenever I am on, we get rolled more than we pwn.

Also, its just a matter of time before our capitol is baned again. I think kod or cs can take us out whenever they want.

[molukai]

Many? I'm sorry but I don't see that at all. Name 3 people you know that have done this.

As for the winning team, if you don't think we are the winning team then go join CS or KOD. Both are on a decline - the experienced players of KOD have joined CR, and those that remain are the zergers that zerg us with 20+ people every time during a mine fight. CS is already in the process of dissolving.

If you don't like it in Divinity, leave. Only way CS would be able to "take us out" whenever they want is if they bring all their allies, and KOD just simply can't defeat us unless they tap into CS's ally base. Simple as that.

[rubymoon]

I love Divinity and the friendships I've made here and I have NO plans to leave it.

That said, I agree we have a very bad organization problem and several of our players that have moved to other guilds have stated (to me) that as their reason for going. They don't want to just be on the winning side. They are tired of the frustration of trying to get people to band together for a purpose. Any pupose, whether a bane, a mine fight, or a simple PL group.

I know I am not effective when I go to these things but I'm there. I follow directions and I make my best effort at it. And I am getting a bit better. But I will never be good at PK. For those that don't know, I'm an old lady with slow reflexes and have never played a game like this before. But I'm not afraid to die and figure at least I can distract one opponent for a time while he kills me and that may save someone else. I've made a few alts that are more support characters in hopes that I can contribute more to a group with heals, buffs, and summons so I can be more useful at these things but still, many times the thought in my head when I see which members are in a particular group going is why put my heart into this when they are just going to waste my death.

Last night while farming and pl'ing just north of the city we were rolled 3 times in a matter of minutes. It was the same templar, Fealty, who's done it to me numerous times before. We put together an almost full group of our best alts to go and get him. Everyone repaired and buffed and talked big. And stood around for 15 minutes. Then sort of scattered. Then meandered up to cultists one by one. We just don't function as a group in most things and we need to find a way to fix that to make us stronger.

Clatto was a leader. Not only did he know the game well but he could form a group and get to the needed spot in a matter of moments. But how often did he have to go with a small group? How often did he get there and have all the group actually present and ready to fight? And how often did they follow his simple instructions? Mol you are also a great group leader but I know you see the same thing most times. More people need to step up to the plate in this guild. If you wear the city tags, be a part of the city functions. More leaders need to emerge and more people need to jump in and help these leaders by being there following their orders. Half the time it seems half the group I'm in is doing something else. I don't know what they are doing but they aren't paying attention to the guild or group talk. Vent alone is not the cure. We need groups that can strike quickly, effectively, and with as much power as we can muster. We need more leaders and more organization on the field. We need people to BE there, in their heads. Not talking to a friend, not pl'ing an alt on another box, not wandering around because they are bored waiting for the attack.

The main thing that bothers me is the "Me, Me, Me" attitude of too many guild members. This becomes very apparent in the PL groups and I know at least a few that I go out with regularly will agree with me on this. I'm a farmer at heart and I'm good at it. But I'm tired of taking people out to PL, have them get ALL the loot because I'm busy doing a large part of the killing and often flying, have them pull huge mobs and then run and leave me to die trying to protect them, and then loot my grave and refuse to return my stuff. And it's not just happening to me. There are people I won't group with anymore. There are a handful I will always go anywhere with. Turtle groups seem to have fallen off lately and I think this is much of the reason. I know myself I'd rather just go up the hill by myself these days. I've needed the gold for the huntress trainer and I can't count on bringing anything home from turtles the last few weeks. Many of the turtle groups I've seen formed lack the strength to be effective there. I don't take my own alts out there because I haven't found a group that has the fire power to be effective. So I take ruby to help pl others and my alts aren't growing. Or I pl a bit north of the city for the lowbies.

The first thing I do when I sign on each day is say in guild "hi everyone" I know who will answer. And it's usually just a small handful of all the guild members online. I was saying hello to each guildy as they signed on but why waste my typing on people who immediately port out and are never seen again? This is part of building a family. We need to be a family and work together more instead of so many focusing on their own interests.

I've given gifts of gold, runes, and found equipment to quite a few people. Helped pl a lot of people. I built a huntress trainer for the city on my own (with some help from you mol) because I saw quite a few new huntresses in the guild. I wrote in nation each night that I was taking donations for this project and only a few friends offered help (thank you). It was a matter of pride that I build it myself and with the help of the other nation huntresses but not one came forward. Amazingly though, new huntresses are popping out of the woodwork to use the trainer but not one of them was willing to help build her?

I plan to fund another trainer as soon as I can build up a bit because this is the best way I've found to help divinity with the skills that I have. It needs to be a trainer we don't currently have in the nation. But will I get help with it? Doubtful, because so few people in this guild are interested in anything beyond their own gain.

Sorry for being so irritated today. I'm going to go farm so we can get another trainer started.

[aemilius]

"Many? I'm sorry but I don't see that at all. Name 3 people you know that have done this.

As for the winning team, if you don't think we are the winning team then go join CS or KOD. Both are on a decline - the experienced players of KOD have joined CR, and those that remain are the zergers that zerg us with 20+ people every time during a mine fight. CS is already in the process of dissolving.

If you don't like it in Divinity, leave. Only way CS would be able to "take us out" whenever they want is if they bring all their allies, and KOD just simply can't defeat us unless they tap into CS's ally base. Simple as that."


Mol, 3 people that left over the weekend were Ferenzy, Turminal, and Clatto...

I dont plan to join CS or KOD. I like Divinity very much, however, it is important to be honest. I think you should be more receptive to critique and honesty. Dont attack me because I have a different opinion. Also, I am NOT a yes man.

Please show me how we are on the winning team? Since the bane on our capitol, we were insignificant at the IRN bane defense and were crushed at the monsoon offense. Also, at the Arirang trainer defense we happened to be a liability. That was no fault of ours, but it still affected our reputation. I cant remember the last time we actually won a mine. Maybe a week ago. I tried to grab a mine yesterday from KOD with 6 people.

Constant defeats demoralizes our people. We play the game to have fun. And it is no fun to lose. I have been frustrated so many times when we outnumber the enemy at a mine or wherever and got completely rolled w/out taking out 1 enemy. I have even thought of leaving. I have not left because I enjoy a challenge and I find it rewarding to weather the bad times and turn a guild into a contender.

Mol, have you ever watched the Godfather movies? Bad example, I know, but I think it will help clarify how I feel about leadership. Lead the guild while calm and cool and take advise from your peers, much like Michael Corleone. Do not lead like Santino with passion and rage, you'll just drive yourself to isolation and eventual defeat.

[rubymoon]

Ok, I'm pretty disgusted today and will take some time off from the game

I went to Iron Knights as soon as I got home from work. I asked repeatedly in guild, nation, and in says to be grouped and got no response. Every time I tried to go outside the walls I was killed immediately. I died 6 times and gave up. I took little tempest there and started healing any ally I could find and followed aem as much as I could trying to keep him healed because he was the only person I knew there. Even after our forces gave up I took her city to city healing all TAO guildies who came home dead so they could go back and fight. I was even in the Iron Knights city as the last of the defense teams were being killed as they ported back in to a lost cause. There must have been 70 to 80 enemy surrounding the tree and I was probably one of the last ones killed there because I was overlooked so long. Where were the rest of you?

Why do we have all these subguilds when they never come around to support us? I see them in nation and PvP all the time but where are they for the mine fights and banes? Why is this nation so fractured?

I built a huntress trainer for the city. Announced that it would be fully ranked by this evening and find out SoT is now trying to rank their own? And find 2 guildies using the one in Aeldreth? Why did I bother trying to help out? Why should I continue to try?

I leave ruby afk with the sound off for 5 minutes and come back to find her poisoned, bleeding, with grasp of thorns on her and under attack by guildies?

This is not fun anymore.

[molukai]

IRN defense -
Monsoon bane - poorly organized due to poor communication from the baning guild, and also we were outnumbered with 0 ally support.

In case you have forgotten, we have in recent memory been instrumental in major bane related attacks. I personally led the TAO forces during our short time in that nation to defend the CD city...successfully I may add.

There is a difference between critiquing your nation and attacking it. Using words such as us being crushed and making insinuations that are unbacked yet full of brimstone such as us supposedly being able to be taken out at the whim of crumbling/nonfactor nations is not words from a member of a guild that wants to see that guild succeed.

As for those three people:
- Ferenzy was a newer member and his assistance to our guild's cause was insignificant at best
- Clatto I have yet to speak with, although I have heard of his leave.
- Turminal to my knowledge was Ferenzy's alt or a RL friend of Ferenzy

As for demoralization due to losses - yet it is true. We have suffered some losses lately due to lackluster performance on both the guild and nation level. That is something we can strive to fix... or not. This game is dying, and every other guild on this server knows that. The only reason we lose nowadays is not because we suck compared to others, but because most of the fights we have gone against lately are against KOD (which I'm sorry to say we do not outnumber -- in fact, they do not even dare attack us at a mine unless they outnumber us by at least 2 groups).

Anyway, I digress. You wish to make the guild stronger? Give suggestions, don't make tired negative statements. If you wish to persist, you know where the door is. I certainly don't need to be given condescending statements -- and trust me, neither would the Corleone family. I have been leading guilds successfully since 1999, and I gotta tell ya that I do care about the input of the members of whatever guild I lead -- but people got to learn how to present themselves in front of the Don or else.

===

Ruby, I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to the battle. I am sorry I have been at work on the weekends, as I do every weekend, thus giving me limited time to be online.

As for your statement about subguilds. A few days ago, our guild once again suffered a server burp, and all of our subguilds auto de-subbed. We have only been able to bring back Divinity Mage Brigade, but we are still missing the following subguilds:

- Divine Armed Forces
- Confrerie D'Alcier
- Deutschland

Those three guilds alone account for nearly 1/2 of the entire city population.

I am sorry that you guys are feeling depressed about the game, and I will do my best to make the game more enjoyable even though there is already a very low limit on how far that can go (as expressed constantly by guilds like CS and Yakuza).

[starbucks]

Unfortunately, the apathy won't stop anytime soon.
Contrast how many people are signed up / post on this website with the population of the city.
No, Aemilius, it's not that we suck at PvP - we have our good and our bad moments. It's just that in the past few weeks, the bad moments seem to have been increasing. Thing is, no matter how bad it gets, CS and KoD will never be able to win an offensive bane versus the Divine Empire. Then again, we probably wouldn't beat one of their cities. That isn't important, though, since neither party would bane the other imho.

Last, but not least, don't attack Molukai, Aemilius. He wasn't attacking you, and if he came on strongly, that is only to be expected as per the nature of this discussion. Granted, Molukai cannot be on at all times, but he dedicates a significant portion of time to the game, and doesn't appreciate actual or seemingly dissent and anti-moralistic commentary and behavior. Then again, if he chose to lead like a dictator, that'd be up to him, since he is the leader, and this is SB.

[cyranon]

Both of you are being awfully hard on Aemilius.
I've read through these posts and I didn't see anything he said that was insulting to Mol. I think he described his view of the "state of the nation". Mol you disagree. I think it was a great disservice to Aemilius that you responded to his statement of how things are going by inviting him to leave.

This is especially true because I think Aemilius has a more accurate description of the state of the nation. Currently, none of the shops have been cleared in almost a week. In fact, you can't buy a recall scroll in our city. I tele to Aeldreth to buy recall scrolls.

I spent most of this weekend creating a minobarb. Why was I doing that when my druid isn't done yet? Because I got rolled by a templar at cultists who was a real jerk about it. I tried to get someone to go with me and get him. I couldn't get a single person to go. In fact, I only got one person to respond to me at all. I went back out to look and this templar was sitting, yes sitting, solo at the cultists without a care in the world. It pissed me off that our enemies have so little fear of us that they will solo in our front yard.

It would be great if Aemilius' sense of things were off. I would be happy if it's just been a slow week, and Mol's view of our nation is the more accurate one. Either way I don't think it's helpful inviting one of the few people who have been active to leave.

Cyranon.

[molukai]

I was not inviting him to leave. My statement, simply put, is that if you are going to paint a bleak picture of the situation with little to no constructivism whatsoever (i.e. suggestions on improvement), then go ahead and enter another guild. This statement was not directed in Aemilius in particular per se, but to anyone that has the mentality that Aemilius seems to be portraying.

As for the shops not being cleared for over a week, that is an extreme exaggeration. I was online 2 days ago to clear up the shops a bit -- it's just that it is more of a daily task and Starbucks recently has decided to quit the game, making maintenance harder for me over the weekend (since I work 12 hour shifts on the weekend, making it difficult to get in-game).

I do acknowledge that there is a situation where activeness in the guild and on the nation should improve, and I am open to suggestions as to how to go about it. Thank you.

[cyranon]

What to do is tough. Obviously, the answer is to have more active people. How you do that is what's tough. One thing that I think would help is giving people the message that they are expected to level. I'm amazed how often I'll be in town and there's 4-5 R5's standing around hitting each other and bragging about how hard they hit. People are supposed to be having fun, so if that's what they enjoy... Still I can't help thinking they should be lvling.

Another option is to involve more people. You could pick trustworthy people and give them a shop to take care of, or encourage them to do what Ruby is doing with the trainer. In retrospect, I wonder if having Harvey and Llorimar build sub-guilds maybe part of what is hurting us now. They could be stepping up to leadership roles during the times you aren't on.

One last thought is about mines. Clatto was real active going after mines, but I always found it a little discouraging. Instead of picking a mine and having a plan we ran willy-nilly till we either got lucky or killed. Then once we had the mine the benefit was real abstract. It helped the city, but not necessarily in a clear way I could see. I would say that winning a mine can be a real morale booster, but the energy might be better spent on hunting for runes, lvling in a new area, or pking. I think those things are guaranteed to build people up while mines only build us up if we win.

[molukai]

I finally got a chance to talk to Clatto, and it turns out that he mainly quit for two reasons:
- His IC ability was disabled for some reason
- One of his RL buddies was kicked out of the guild for whatever reason